Prison

[Baldur 0]

1 hour ago, Kalesh said:

@Baldur I think I should clarify that completing parole and/or going from orange to green was not something I suggested in any way, but rather the equivalent of making your prisoners work, like how in real life they might man the cafeterias or otherwise perform labor, and then in SAO escape.

And I am not so much missing it so much as being under the opinion that I don't see the issue with that. Quests are essentially the same thing to begin with but short-term. Being in that situation is only as monotonous as those roleplaying make it, a creative mind makes the restrictions a secondary concern, and an escape system of some sort would be interesting in my opinion.

And yeah, I do agree it's not feasible since people enjoy freedom, that's just natural. Fun is a matter of perspective and opinion though.

 I agree with all your points, but just like you mention, fun is a matter of perspective. If someone finds themselves in that position, and doesn't think that sounds like fun, then they're at an impass and leave the site. For someone that thinks that is fun, then it's not an issue. The problem is that it becomes something forced upon them, rather than something they choose to do like quests.

[Takao 0]

On 6/13/2016 at 11:01 AM, Kalesh said:

ot true. Canonically theft, assault, and I think trying to forcefully move NPCs to different locations all grant you an orange cursor.

Forcefully moving NPCs would cause an "Inappropriate contact" message to appear and the player would be shocked. Given that the worst pain a player can feel in the game is a mild tingling sensation, I'm not sure exactly what the extent of the shocking would be, but it doesn't give you an orange cursor. Generally speaking, I don't know that there's any evidence of orange cursors being granted for actions taken against an NPC, only players.

On the topic of prisons, I can't imagine an actual system would be put into place that could be used aggressively against other players. If both parties agreed to it I don't see why it couldn't be done in-character for the sake of storytelling in the same way that you might allow somebody to kill your character, but an actual mechanical system wouldn't work with the medium.

[Hunie 0]

We do of course try to stick to canon as much as possible, but this is also an RP site, so some thing have too be OOC but have IC consequences. It would be really nice to to see a system like this being put into place. I'm trying to work on a justice system, if it all works out, it'd be great. Guys, please do suggest more possible ways we could implement this, keeping it as close to canon as possible, it'd really help flesh out a structured process. :D 

[Baldur 0]

3 hours ago, Hunie said:

some thing have to be OOC but have IC consequences.

I'm not sure I understood what you were trying to say with this phrase. Can you elaborate?

[Hunie 0]

I mean, technically there is no canon way to differentiate between killing a played 'NPC' and an actual PC.
For example I could have an enemy who's also a player in the game, but he's something I've created and if I kill him I'd go orange, but I don't actually deserve a great punishment. Where as killing an actual played character, like me killing Takao (sure, that's happening) should have more severe consequences. 

[Baldur 0]

39 minutes ago, Hunie said:

I mean, technically there is no canon way to differentiate between killing a played 'NPC' and an actual PC.
For example I could have an enemy who's also a player in the game, but he's something I've created and if I kill him I'd go orange, but I don't actually deserve a great punishment. Where as killing an actual played character, like me killing Takao (sure, that's happening) should have more severe consequences. 

But why? In character, in story, in universe, it's the same thing. So why does one deserve more punishment than the other? That's inconsistent. 

[Hunie 0]

Valid point, I see how it is inconsistent. It was a suggestion that I thought made sense, because we also need to deter people from killing played characters with no second thoughts. Since often its difficult to tell whether there were genuinely IC reasons to back it up, or OOC reasons clouded IC judgement <- Which can be toxic for the community and that's not nice, already I've noticed how people were always on the edge that they might be killed off. At the same time, it wouldn't make sense to make the punishment too harsh for those killing NPCs, because that would deter people from making 'bad characters' and they have a right to do so, just not in a manner that impinges (without consent) on someone else's hard work. But this is just my take on it. :)

[Baldur 0]

That's why a prison idea is so complex. If you're gonna punish someone IC, then it needs to be consistent IC. We can't use OOC mechanics to punish players IC for IC actions. We also can't be the judge of what is or isn't in character for players or their characters. If there is evidence of OOC harassment (Which there hasn't been for any case yet) then that's a separate issue and would be dealt with OOCly.

As to punishing players IC - that's a terrible way to look at it.

There should be IC consequences, yes. However, risk of death and PvP/PK are essential to the character of SAO. Unfortunately, the PVE experience stops being dangerous around level 5, but that has more to do with not keeping the system balanced through all the changes through all these years. People have gotten careless and used to being safe, and this ties in to people getting attached to a single character. I guarantee if you, if I was actually in my character's shoes, I wouldn't be going half-assed into these boss fights like a lot of people are. These recent PKs have pointed out flaws in the system, and reminded everyone that their precious characters can die. Good!

Now one problem has been the ease to which PKers can one shot players, and to which they can escape a thread once their target is dead. Once these two loop holes are dealt with, then a player won't be able to just one-hit kill someone, and then disappear before anyone else in the thread can react. This will make killing other players without backup much riskier, and allow for vigilante justice to be a thing.

But to artificially impose a penalty on a player for not doing anything against the rules is wrong. If you want justice in character, then you're gonna have to make justice in character. SAO is the wild wild west all over again.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Baldur

[Hunie 0]

Ah! Well I wasn't meaning it to be something all that nasty xD. In fact the kind of suggestions I'm working on help with character building and it IS mostly consistent with IC things so far, although I'll try fine tune it a bit more with the added fairness of ICly consistence. A mechanic fix is also a partial answer to the problem. But not entirely, because there are always new comers and if they should so want, they should be able to RP with higher levels or make OPs where higher levels can join, without the risk of potentially being killed off. (One-shotting can't be completely eliminated, for all things said and done). And personally I don't think its good that we had to lose people in order to realise flaws in the mechanic. The actual game is meant to be scary, any good RPers will keep themselves on their toes, ICly. But this doesn't have to reflect on their OOC decisions or inability to go into a boss fight better prepared. If luck is against them, yes they might die, but people killing other people because they weren't 'prepared' is not good, because OOCly I don't think it was expected at all. 

[Baldur 0]

11 minutes ago, Hunie said:

Ah! Well I wasn't meaning it to be something all that nasty xD. In fact the kind of suggestions I'm working on help with character building and it IS mostly consistent with IC things so far, although I'll try fine tune it a bit more with the added fairness of ICly consistence. A mechanic fix is also a partial answer to the problem. But not entirely, because there are always new comers and if they should so want, they should be able to RP with higher levels or make OPs where higher levels can join, without the risk of potentially being killed off. (One-shotting can't be completely eliminated, for all things said and done). And personally I don't think its good that we had to lose people in order to realise flaws in the mechanic. The actual game is meant to be scary, any good RPers will keep themselves on their toes, ICly. But this doesn't have to reflect on their OOC decisions or inability to go into a boss fight better prepared. If luck is against them, yes they might die, but people killing other people because they weren't 'prepared' is not good, because OOCly I don't think it was expected at all. 

Going into a boss fight unprepared is either A) The character's ignorance B) the player's ignorance C) the character's personality D) the player meta-gaming, because they know that it's rare that anyone actually gets put in danger.

Watch the anime. If Safeguards existed in the lore, do you think there is a single frontliner who wouldn't start the fight with a safeguard? Or that they wouldn't come to every boss fight brimming with as many consumables as they could carry? Think about real life, where people are going into active combat areas, do you think anyone is just running in without thinking they're adequately prepared (When they have a choice).

I've tried to help staff out with the one-shotting thing (which as I've pointed out numerous times it the real issue here, not necessarily the PvP rules).

Ultimately my point is, you can't punish players (or characters) for following the rules, even when that means they've killed another player. If we want to punish those characters IC, it needs to come IC from other characters. The problem with things like prison threads (where the player can't post anywhere else until they've escaped) is that it punishes the player too. Some may rise to the challenge, and I'm not entirely against it as a concept, but we have to be very careful about how we implement it.

Take Oikawa, for example (since he's orange). Someone throws him in prison, and suddenly he can't post anywhere else. How many other threads is he in? How many other people is he currently carrying through quests, or crafting stuff for, etc... now all of these other people are in limbo, and their experience and fun are being affected. We have fluid time here, so I don't think suddenly implementing non-fluid time is the way to go about it.

[Shark 0]

This has been forwarded to staff for discussion. Thank you for all the talk and discussion in this topic :)

[Vectis 0]

Don't drop the soap

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by Vectis