The Joy of Pole-Arms

[Aetharan 0]

I'm certain that at least Tristan saw this coming before he even approved my character's journal, so I may as well come out with my thoughts and questions on the matter.  As things currently stand, there are four two-handed weapon categories: Two-Handed Straight Sword, Two-Handed Assault Spear, Two-Handed Battle Axe, and Katana.  On the surface, especially with knowledge of pole weapons limited to console RPGs, this seems like it should be everything there could ever hope to be, right?  Wrong.

The problem is in that there is a rather broad selection of real-world pole-arms that fit neither the spear (piercing-only) or axe (slashing-only) archetypes.  The larger group would be hybrids, capable of either piercing or slashing.  The basic concept of "single-edged short-sword on a stick" is one of these, and was realized and used in several cultures as the Glaive, Naginata, Guandao, Sovnya, and Palma.  Of similar function (also capable of both thrusting and slashing) was the basic war scythe, which rather than the traditional Grim Reaper image, rotated that blade 90º to point up, and so gives us the same basic capabilities of stab or slash, but with the cutting edge on the concave rather than convex.  Although a Ranseur is basically a Sai on a stick (stabbing only, treat as a spear), its cousin the Partisan has sharpened edges to go with its points, bringing it from 'pointy stick' territory into 'knife on a stick', and once again making it both a slashing and stabbing weapon.

Then comes the question of Lucerne hammers and their ilk.  The most basic would be 'heavy weight on the end of a pole' in function, with no flexibility.  Just swing and crush, a five- to ten-pound sledge on a six-foot pole.  Far more likely, you'd see one side a hammer head, the reverse a spike for piercing armor, and the tip a spear for thrusting.

Ultimately, what I'm getting at is this:  Do none of these things exist in SAO, even if players would be bringing in outside knowledge of them, and blacksmiths would certainly make an attempt at re-creating the flexibility of real-world weaponry?  If a smith does try pull off such a creation, say, for a woman aiming for the Yamato Nadeshiko archetype, or a character whose player draws inspiration from Matrim Cauthon or even Uther the Lightbringer, what exactly happens?  If a glaive can be crafted, does its owner have the option of using his Spear or Axe skill on it as appropriate to the situation, or does he unlock a hidden hybrid skill after a couple of ranks in each?

Does the first attempt by a player to create any of these kinds of weapons force Cardinal to hit up whatever 2025's version of Wikipedia is and expand the in-game weapon categories, the sword-skills for them, to meet the demand?  Or does the blacksmith trying to make a naginata for that would-be Lady of War find that no such weapon can exist in game, and that he can't stick that sledge-hammer head onto a pole longer than four feet?

 

Edit:  By way of comparison, look at swords:  A rapier was good only for thrusting, as they typically lacked either a thick enough blade or an edge to slash with.  Some heavily-curved swords could only slash, and never thrust, because they simply didn't come to a usable point for such a move.  The vast majority of blades, however, were capable of either motion to some degree or another.

Edit 2:  With full awareness that the system is currently being expanded upon and re-balanced, I figured that now is a good time to bring up such questions of balance and flexibility.  Also worth discussing would be the question of how that re-balancing will take into account the sacrifice of a shield by wielding two-handed weapons at all, and what mechanical benefits might join the flavour reasons for going the route of a pole-arm, when sword-and-board currently holds a distinct numerical advantage (which has already been brought up in other threads.)  I wouldn't mind one bit seeing this thread evolve into an open discussion of how such balancing and expansion of the current system might be accomplished, if those working on that project would be alright with such a topic being hammered out.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Aetharan

[Takao 0]

I think there's a bit of a preconceived notion that people have made about crafted equipment. A lot of people seem to think that anything can be crafted, no matter how out of place it is, like players wearing tuxedos or having artisans craft them Pokemon watches because they used a Pokemon character for their profile image. I don't really have any personal qualms about it, because it's such a small thing that it doesn't impact anything, but in reality it'd be much more likely that the only things available to be crafted would be a finite amount of items that all followed some kind of theme.

Theoretically, if a game offers certain weapon skills, the only weapons you would be capable of obtaining in the game would be weapons that correspond with those weapon skills. I can't imagine that the game would be so advanced that the players could actually just imagine something they wanted to make and then make it. I mean, if players were able to craft whatever they imagined, the system would be able to have to create models, meshes, textures, and all that, as well as implement an entire new skill for thousands of players. It seems much more likely that the option just wouldn't be there, and you'd have to pick from things that correspond to the relevant skill.

I don't see the skill limitations being such a big deal that you couldn't just stretch the definition a bit to fit certain weapons. At the moment, the various weapon skills literally do nothing to differentiate from each other, so there's no real point that I can see for having a hundred different variations, when they all do the same exact thing at their core.

[Aetharan 0]

I believe that the notion is largely related to the weapon-crafting scene during the Aincrad arc of the anime.  There was no selecting a target type from a menu, but rather a look of concentration on her face while her internal monologue went on about putting her whole soul into the creation to show how she felt for the person she was making it for.  It implies that the weapon took a shape determined by her thoughts, and ultimately, such a capability in the system feels like it would provide more freedom for those trapped in the game to take some pride in their creations.

In relation to the weapon skill thing, I'll admit that it's mostly just a pet peeve and a bit of bleedover from my D&D days.  I mentally stumble when I try to imagine swinging a halberd with Martial Weapon Proficiency (Spear), or applying Weapon Focus (Battle Axe) to a thrust made with a glaive.  The way that it strikes me, two of the three narrowest categories of pole-arm have been given individual skills, while the broadest historic category is left out in the current system.  Either the majority of pole-arm designs just don't exist in game and never can, or you can apply whichever of the two skills best fits the moment to them if you have one.

Besides, we're talking a system that, in canon, trolled the internet for legends appropriate to its theme so that it could build an epic quest from whole cloth, including NPC creation, and which allowed players to craft custom sword-arts, meaning that the computer assist could take over an arm to replicate the moves that had been recorded by a player.  True, both occurred in ALO, rather than SAO, but it was built on the same Cardinal system.

[Tristan Delaney 0]

Not much concern is given over the exact definition of a weapon seeing as its vanity and not stat changing, but polearms such as glaives are classed as Two-Handed Assault Spears or Axes, obviously the main function of the weapon giving good indication (Naginatas and Poleaxes being pure slashing etc.). I asked this same question more than half a year ago too, so I know your feeling :P
I must admit though Two Handed war hammers seem...unwieldy for real life combat use. They may look pretty, but a one handed flanged mace has no issues smashing armour. Plus glaives and the like are immensely powerful, in our Norman reenactment group when testing their power nearly broke a chain mail armoured mans arm with a swing judged to be not too strong. Hence we've actually banned swinging polearms in our "Battle Royale" where there are far less restrictions on how you can fight an opponent at the cost of being trained and fully armoured. 

[Aetharan 0]

I know what you mean about the 'nearly breaking an arm' bit, certainly.  I encountered that one when running with the SCA at one point in my teens.  Then again, pole arms in general are pretty much the original "force multiplier", aren't they?  Peasant Bob is all, "Hey, if I strap this hunting knife to my walking stick and swing it really, really hard, I can knock that bandit in a tin can off his horse and just maybe sever something while I'm at it!"  Seems to have been the origin of the whole class of weapons, and something converged on repeatedly from various cultures over time, using everything some peasant might have thought to tie to a stick.

Personally, in a real-world melee, I'll just stick to my steel toed boots and the knowledge that nobody ever wears a cup to a bar.

[Tristan Delaney 0]

Our leader of the group often says that Billhooks were basically cheating weapons, since they could do everything all other weapons could aside from pike reach and yet simple to make. On a horse? Hook the horses legs! Have a shield? Pry it open with the hook, then slice or stab (winged spears are good for this too and the reason for hooks on halberds and such). Has power too and good reach.

But yes, polearms are generally accepted as the king of the medieval battlefield, especially in a group scenario. Swords may only have a slight edge when 1v1 with a shield as swords are easily handled with one hand and can get up close and personal to someone. Though for that exact reason spear users also often had knives as a sidearm to stab with if someone got up close.