Endilix

Endilix had made himself a nice cup of coffee after welcoming his guests in. He had done little more than grunt at the brunette man at his remarks, wanting to comment on how an orange cursor had to be earned through some sort of crime, but this was neither the time nor the place. This was about Teion and it was clear that more had happened than Endilix could have ever imagined in the time of them being apart.

Endilix had listed to her recount the details of what had happened recently, and without really realizing he found himself squeezing the cup that held the coffee until his knuckles turned white. More death. That's all this game ever was. More death, more sadness, more betrayal. The most dangerous thing in this game wasn't the monsters. It was the humans taking advantage of a mostly lawless situation. As Endilix listened, he wondered if the only way to be a hero in this world was to be just as bad, if not worse, than those who killed indiscriminately, stole, and threatened without remorse.

Once Teion had finished, Endilix let go of the sigh he hadn't realized he had been holding. Endilix was dense sometimes, but there was one thing he often understood better than most things. "Did you love him?" he asked, but really it was rhetorical. The pain hidden behind her eyes. The sorrow she didn't want to show, it told him the answer. He looked down at the wooden counter of his bar and shook his head, "Well, if nothing else. I'm glad that nothing irrational happened. No suicide or anything like that. I can't say that my time in the shadows was nearly as eventful."

Slowly, Endilix's eyes looked to Teion's searching them. "How did he die?"

Combat Data

Endilix had watched the dragon sidestep the attacks of his party members, even going so far as to completely ignore Mist. "You little runt. Playing hard to get now, eh? I guess you didn't like us beating you up a little." The dragon gave a roar in response and looked down at the man holding up his shield. In a flash, the serpentine beast had ripped its fangs into Endilix's shield and arm, before tearing away his defense and clawing the man in the chest. Endilix gasped in surprise as the beast easily dismantled his defenses, clearly being far more upset than Endilix had imagined. The knight staggered and managed to keep a hold of his shield despite the beast's onslaught. "You sly little..." he said, as he huffed. The actual attack hadn't done a ton of damage, but it was more than Endilix was used to taking.

He quickly readied his hammer in retaliation, but the beast reared up and dodged the attack, before giving a low snarl and another roar for good measure. "Alright then, you win this round. Let's go again." Endilix said, with some bravado.

Endilix couldn't help the scowl that crossed his face as the man behind Teion spoke. Though if he was being honest, he didn't know many people that would be able to help it, considering such poor taste in humor. "A poor joke made in bad taste, considering your situation. As someone who is clearly accompanying a dear friend of mine, I most likely would have given you the benefit of the doubt, despite your cursor. But that first impression wasn't all that great," he said to the man, his eyes fixated on about the point where he assumed his were, before shifting his gaze to the purple haired woman. "In any case, where are my manners? Please, come inside both of you."

Endilix stepped to the side, holding the door open for the duo to enter, before indicating his bar with his free hand, "There are drinks, juice, tea, coffee, take your pick. And some finger foods besides. You're welcome to them. Also," Endilix started his next sentence while bringing attention back to the man, "I have a policy of no full face helmets in here. I don't even let my brother wear his mask. And lest you worry, either I won't recognize you, or I won't care if I do. If you're a friend of Teion, then I'm operating under the assumption that either Beatbox was an important person, or that there's another reason that she trusts you."

Endilix knew that once combat started, everyone would jump into action. It was as it always was. Flints would tear the enemy apart before it knew what would hit it, Emerath would be the utility knife, doing whatever he needed to in the moment, and Endilix would take the smack to the face. But Emerath surprised his brother, and rather than simply dishing out the damage, he stunned their opponent, giving Endilix a reprieve. Although, with Endilix not being any kind of a damage dealer, he was just standing there like nothing more than a glorified target dummy.

Slowly, Rhaegal came back to its senses, but by that point it was too late. He had missed his chance to take his swing at Endilix, and Endilix had had plenty of time to concentrate on the screaming dragon to get a good smack in. His hammer glowed a solid crimson as he let out a battle cry and smacked the dragon square in the snout. The creature reeled despite its HP only dropping a sliver due to its tough scales. That and Endilix did no damage, but he accepted this fact. His point was to keep the creature on him, and sure enough the dragon gave an angry squeal and slithered back to Endilix, growling.

Endilix smiled and held his shield up, "That's right, you big baby. Just stand still so my friends can dismantle you."

Combat Data

Endilix was startled by the knock on the door, despite that he had been anticipating his guest. He had managed to get himself lost in his mind at all of the things whirling around there. Not the least of which was, "What now?" He let out a heavy sigh as he tried to loosen up to feel more at ease with this meeting, but he could still feel the tension in his shoulders. This wasn't going to be easy by any stretch of the word.

Finally, after enough stalling he found himself standing in front of the door. His breath caught again as he reached to undo the lock, and he had to force it to resume normally so he didn't act or look like a fish out of water once he actually opened the door. Though slightly erratic and nervous, he managed to resume breathing, as he unlocked the door quickly before he could change his mind, and he swung it open in front of him, giving an awkward smile and wave to the woman behind the door. "Welcome!" he said as cheerfully as possible, with a note of exasperation at the situation. As he turned to step away from the door and allow her in, Endilix found his eyes drifting to something out of place.

There was a man, standing behind Teion. He was in a full suit of armor, from head to waist, at the very least. Endilix didn't really care to look any further. But it wasn't so much the man's existence that threw him off, it was the man's cursor color. In an instant, the anxiety from the meeting of an old friend eroded away, only to be replaced by tons of questions. Not the least of which actually managed to escape his lips: "Why is he here?"

Endilix watched the egg carefully as Flints spoke, but it wasn't until she placed her hand on the egg that it started to move. As Flints backed away, suddenly the egg began to shake even more, before violently ripping open in front of them, an emerald face with reptilian eyes staring out at them from the hole created. Endilix shouted for the others to, "Get back!" as the remainder of the dragon erupted from the egg. As it sprawled out it dripped with a strange goo, and rose to about the size of a horse in front of Endilix and the others. Endilix stared at it, but already had himself ready as he shouted at the dragon. "Hey, over here little guy! Let's dance!" Endilix said as he slammed his hammer against the hard cover of his pumpkin shield. He backed out of the nest to give them some more fighting room as the dragon lithely stepped over all the debris and the nest edge, taking a keen interest in the knight, but not yet attacking.

Combat Data

Endilix had gone back to wiping down the counter after steeling his nerves a bit. Despite this though, he was still startled by the ding that sounded from his UI once he got a message. It was Teion, and she was coming to his shop? Endilix suddenly turned pale before scrambling to ready himself for her arrival. Quickly, glasses were thrown on the bar and he filled them with lemonade. He brewed a pot of coffee and dug in his fridge for some snacks, finally settling on some cheese. He grabbed a pack of crackers and scuttled back to his bar, laying them out on a plate. He wanted her to feel comfortable. And also to not feel like Endilix wasn't taking care of himself or his bar.

Taking deep breaths, he tried to calm back down, but his heart was racing despite himself. He hadn't seen Teion in so long now, but at least he knew she was alive. He could take solace in that simple fact, as he waited for her arrival.

Endilix glanced behind him as they walked, looking at the pup who now walked between him and Flints, and Flints' on guard nature. Even Emerath, masked as he was, seemed on edge. It just figured, Endilix had almost attacked Flints for what should have been a playful gesture. He wound his way into the forest, looking for the dragon that would be their quest for the day, not wanting to cause any further disturbances in the party. Finally, they reached a clearing, where there appeared to be a dragon egg. Endilix stopped, and held a hand out to indicate that the others should stop as well, before pulling his Crippler from its sheath. "Look there, the creature's egg."

Endilix took another careful step into the clearing. It was a perfectly round area cut out of the trees, and yet despite this the leaves still shaded the area almost entirely. Branches and twigs covered the area leading up to the nest, as if the forest had been forcefully removed to make way for this hatchling, and Endilix snapped a few twigs as he creeped closer to the egg. "It appears that the dragon hasn't hatched yet. I don't know if it counts if we just smash the egg. I feel like it doesn't. Make sure you guys are ready for battle. Despite it being a hatchling, it is still a dragon."

It had been a while since Endilix had stood in his bar. He had gone through all the normal rituals. He wiped his counter, he wiped his glasses. He watched the door for customers that would never come. The works. He even wore his apron and everything. But he never cooked. He never actually made any drinks. But yet everything still seemed off at times. He had never quelled the turmoil in his heart. Not with Flints, not with Emerath, not with Razum-dar. Not with Teion.

Without thinking, his fingers brought up his menu, and before he could stop himself, a message was being typed across his UI: "Look, I know this is a bit out of the blue. But I need to know you're okay. All the time I've traveled alone across Aincrad, I never bugged you, and you never bugged me. That's fine. But you know what, it's been too long. I need to know you're okay. Please."

Without realizing Endilix felt his face wet, as he sent the message and wiped away a tear. He had never worried for Flints. She could take care of herself and had some levels under her belt. Emerath was too cautious to get himself in trouble, and Razum-dar was just a stranger that owed Endilix nothing, despite what the boy himself believed. But he didn't know what to expect from Teion. He needed to know. Whether he had realized it at first at not, he was more worried about her than he could describe.

Endilix scowled at Endilix's words after Flints' apology and affirmation. "You sat in the dark for so long, Emerath. You weren't out here in the world like I was. You didn't watch people die. Kids, innocents, even criminals. Dead. Actual people, dead. Forgive me for not wanting to join them."

Sadness burned at Endilix's eyes as the emotion threatened to overtake him. Through all this time alone, he had never figured out what a hero was. He had thought it was someone who protected others, but Flints had made him realize that it wasn't that simple, and then they had parted again. He had never found the answer, and now his heart had apparently turned to stone. "Flints, I'm sorry. Lets... let's get this quest done. Thank you for coming, both of you."

Endilix left those words hanging in the air as he turned and walked into the forest, hoping that his companions wouldn't abandon him now. His right hand gripped his hammer's head, his knuckles turning white beneath his cloak. The question he asked himself every day since he had saved Razum-dar rang through his head. What makes a man a hero when he can't protect everyone?

I totally didn't do as I said I would. I peeked. Thank you Ruby. I feel that staff recognizes and has given their reasoning on my points in a fair manner, so I'm content.

One thing I've always appreciated about SAO was it's atmosphere. SAO as a piece of fiction works because of the philosophy involved in its root arc. The following arcs keep this philosophy but keep it more under the radar. The true underlying story should always be, "Even in the game world, you aren't always safe." 

At the end of the day, you're right, I don't want my characters killed without reason or meaning, but with purpose. But I don't want my characters to feel safe.

And as for the original point. I'm glad it's recognized that a player can't just say, "No, no, timeout! I don't want to die!" when losing.

Fwiw: I haven't commented much on how I feel about invasions because of how heated things got. But I've been an advocate for something like invasions from only months since I had started playing. Though I had imagined it to be more stealth based. But that a mechanic like this has made it's way in works for me. If it does get out of hand as Seul and Azide have suggested, then I'm sure we'll all say they were right and fix it again. But until then, I think we should give it a fair shake instead of all just being doomsayers. We have a lot of responsible people on this site. Let's have some faith in them. And even in K1r1t0, or at least in those extreme cases in staff to mediate.

I'll say one more thing, and then that should be it. Consensual deaths do happen. Good writers will allow for these. They will want to write that story for the worth of the story itself. You can message Flints and ask her, because at one point I had given her permission to kill Emerath. Which she decided not to. Good writers know that it just might be time for that character.

But this is the exception, not the norm. Compare the number of created characters to the number of characters who died through a collaborative PK. Compare the actual number of PVE deaths to PVP deaths in general. Think about how often these deaths happen in relation to each other. How extreme the circumstances were or had to be to make these happen at all.

In terms of a logical arguement, then I argue statistics. Often these speak for themselves.

I don't plan on leaving this site forever. And you can ask Teion, I never, not once, stopped caring about this community, regardless of absences. You know that quest list made by Zulee? Zulee is an alt of mine that I made to play without the paradigm of how everyone views me.

At least Azide had the common courtesy to be polite when basically destroying my point. Which I respected and agreed with. Staff, please PM me or hit me up on Discord if you wish for further opinions on the PVP rules. I'll not be looking at this thread any further. See you guys in the next discussion.

From a writer's standpoint, I get and respect what you're saying Azide. And as someone who has seen some unfair deaths, I can see how playing this game 1:1 in terms of ganking and this site functioning more as an open world MMO can be completely detrimental.

But, this site still tries to follow canon. It still wants to give characters that psychological trauma that comes with living in a game where someone can kill you at any time. I won't say that invasions are the way to go about it. I don't ultimately care how the staff goes about it. But I want the danger to still be real and present. Because if you're going to write an immersive story, the world has to be properly immersive too. If your character can't die, you as a writer will probably recognize this and your character won't ever feed off of the proper paranoia and real and imminent threat of death.

Really, that's all I want. A non-NPC real and imminent threat of death. The way the rules sound like they keep swinging is towards keeping everyone safe at all times in a death game. I don't want anyone to die. But I want them to realistically be able to. This creates a proper immersive writing world foundation in which these well crafted stories can be created. A large part of SAO's depth comes from the real trauma caused by being unsafe in a video game you thought you could trust. You take that away, and this is just another semi-fantasy RP.

The NK tag is also dangerous, in the sense of, "Why would I never put that tag on my thread to keep my character safe?" Let's just have everyone live a happy life with no death. It's not like this is a death game. Let's just take out PvP and orange tags entirely. Nobody will use them. Nobody wants to die, right? The only way to die in SAO should be suicide.

What Seul said at a base level is correct. What if some novice RPer ruins my story? But if you're so worried about that, then why are you writing collaboratively in the first place? 

@Seul Yeah, I am insane, but that's realistically a topic for outside of this thread. I think you've taken a core concept I presented and blown it completely out of proportion. To clarify, I was talking about people who had collaborated properly over the course of weeks. I'm someone who writes for the story, not for the character. Someone who has lost countless characters I loved in tabletop RPGs such as DnD. I understand what it's like to lose those characters. But when it all makes sense, follows the rules, I didn't go to my GM and complain or write angry letters to Wizards of the Coast about how broken their game is. I knowingly played this game while understanding the risks to my character, and who was running those risks.

That aside, to clarify in a tl:dr manner. Nobody is ever going to die, because nobody will give permission to do so. Your entire post is indicative of the actual selfish nature of most players in any permadeath scenario.

Also, if you're not an adaptable enough writer to write around some of the scenarios presented by collaborative writing in an open thread or an invasion, even if the other writer is garbage, then go write a book or get good kid.

Endilix hadn't been expecting Flints at all, and as she came up behind him he instantly sprung into action. As the woman grabbed onto him he ripped his Crippler from its holster and made his best attempt to throw her over his shoulder, before recognizing the voice that shouted at him.

With a heavy sigh he pulled her hands from his body and stepped away and turned around with a stern look on his face. "This game is too dangerous for that sort of nonsense. What if I had attacked you? Sure, I wouldn't have killed you, but I would still be orange. Then we'd have to deal with people thinking they can take me down until it turns green again." He slid Crippler back into its holster and pulled his cloak back over his arm. He saw Emerath and the animals were just behind Flints and said, "Anyway, the plan today is to hunt dragons. Are you both up for it?"

The main disagreement I have is in inherent player selfishness. Not many players will say, "Yeah, it's cool if you kill my character." Not that it wouldn't happen, but it's unlikely. This is going to result in a lot of, "No I won't let you kill my character even if it makes complete sense for the story." moments. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that anyone deserves to die. But I certainly don't want the brothers to die. I generally wouldn't willingly allow someone to kill them. So believe me I'm not trying to be hypocritical here.

I think in times where there is an obvious motive, justification, and opportunity, staff should rule on these moments and be able to override the permission aspect. 

For example: Endilix is a high level character being stalked by a group hunting frontliners. They've been collaborating on this story for weeks, and having good threads with invasions and scares and it all culminates in a thread where Endilix agrees to have a proper PK combat with dice rolls. Endilix thinks he can win but the rolls aren't in his favor and he is about to lose (die). He calls it all off and says he gives no permission to kill his character. This is unfair to the players that had been hunting him and having proper threads and RP combat culminating in a climax storyline that makes sense.

in the above example, I say that a staff member should be allowed to override OOC permission if it seems like a player just "changed their mind" because they are losing. Otherwise, I'm pretty okay with the rest.

Thread Statistics

Endilix stood in the familiar plains of the First Floor, feeling the light breeze wash over him and his armor. Lightly, his cloak swayed in the wind, occasionally flapping enough to reveal his two hammers hanging on his waist. "A beautiful day for a hunt, I think," he had muttered to himself, as he looked to the sky. He had messaged both Flints and Emerath to meet him at his coordinates. He had told Flints they would be hunting dragons, and Emerath that they were checking off another quest on the list. Both points he knew they'd appreciate. For Endilix? He just wanted to take on a major challenge. And in any other game, anything involving dragons meant glory. His hand rested on the head of one of his hammers as he waited, staring at the boars that roamed the plains and the other adventurers that ran around, chasing them. Ah, what life had once been.

There could be a middle ground based on the conclusions come to here Aereth. One thing I can propose, as someone who likes the 2.5 system, is that it just be tweaked to be more of a balanced thing. Common ground is often just as important as meeting the likes of one side of the fence or the other. So here's a possibility:

• NK default for every thread.
• Options for RP PVP or "threatening" is great.
• If players are less than 5 levels above the player they plan to attack, they use 2.5 PVP rules. If players are lower level than their target, they use 2.5 PVP rules no matter what.
  • This makes the playing field more even for attackers and defenders
  • This leaves Searching and Hiding as viable PVP skills (something I love, btw)
  • It keeps the element of surprise, which is a major facet of SAO canon.
  • This allows players to take down high value green targets if they are villain characters and even ganging up to do so, by attacking players who are higher level than them. But prevents players from overleveling just to smite another player using game mechanics.
  • As per usual, Orange players always follow 2.5 rules.
• In order to keep new players safe, T1 players cannot be killed by another player. Unless it is ONLY by permission and for the sake of story. If a T1 player attacks a T2+ player, they forsake their safety net for that specific battle.
  • By level 25, your character has a basic build, generally some gear, and has made friends. So they would be more capable and able to defend themselves.
• If players are in a party, the attacker must beat the initiative of all party members in order to get the full damage of the attack.
  • This promotes grouping and prevents a weaker target in a group, say a healer, from being isolated and murdered outright if there are members of the group with a high Searching skill.

I think this is a good middle ground that would make the general populace feel safe, while still promoting the proper open world PVP viability of SAO canonically. You're safe until T2, you can't get ganked, but you still have to watch your back sometimes and not make enemies just all willy nilly and be like, "lol can't kill me cause I don't give you permission." That's some grade A cartoon villain stuff.

But as always, that's just my two cents. I'll see you in the next discussion.

 As Flints and Emerath both spoke, Endilix finally came to an understanding of the situation. Even as dense as he could be, this was something that couldn't be easily ignored. "Flints..." he said, not wanting to make a bad situation worse, but rather than continuing the statement, he just found himself moving forward and giving the woman a hug. "I'm so sorry. I wish you had said something sooner."

Endilix looked over her shoulder as he hugged her at the still open trade window that floated in front of him. He stared at it for a long time as his hand absentmindedly rubbed Flints' back. A shield used by a hero that could no longer fight, now offered to Endilix to protect everyone. Did he really deserve something like that? Maybe not, but this wasn't a question of how deserving he was. It was a question of how much Flints cared about him. And the answer was, enough to devote a legendary item from her recent husband's denial to protect the people in her life who still wanted to make a difference.

Slowly, he reached out and pressed the button to accept the trade, and watched as the item popped into his inventory, still in a bit of disbelief that it was real.

Endilix took an involuntary step back from Flints, mostly in surprise of her sudden actions. She was acting far too aloof, and Endilix wasn't sure how to handle it. And then came the trade notification, and for a moment the world just stopped. Endilix had never been the most attentive. He had never known a whole lot about the Frontlines, or the men and women that fought there.

But one thing he knew was that Tristan, the man Flints had married, had been famous for one thing, and that was his impenetrable defenses. And a major part of that was the shield that seared any foes that dared attack him. As Endilix looked at the words on the trade window, he realized that this was the real item. The Twinfire Reflector. Not just a demonic level item, but a legendary item.

His breath caught in his throat, and his finger hesitated at the button before he said, "I... I don't think I can take this. I'm not a hero yet. I have done nothing to deserve this, but be a part of some very strange circumstances..." but he didn't deny the trade yet. He looked to Emerath, pleading him for an answer.

Endilix was definitely thrown off by how flirtatious Flints was acting in this sudden reunion. "Kita, what's going on?" Endilix looked to Emerath for answers, but knew that his twin wouldn't be able to actually shed any light on this situation. "You're acting very odd for not having seen me for so long. Did she act like this with you too?" Endilix asked to Emerath. Again, this was mostly rhetorical as he rubbed his forehead and quickly turned away to hide his further confusion. "Gifts? First Emerath dresses me up and now you show up out of the blue with gifts. This has been such a strange time," but as he said this, he pulled glasses from the shelf and grabbed a few bottles of various drinks from the fridge, before placing them down and waving a hand. "Please, take your pick," he said as he rubbed his forehead again and avoided eye contact with either of the two standing in his bar. If he was being honest, he wasn't even sure which bottles he had grabbed.

Endilix had never crafted. He had never worked to make items and so he never expected to have anyone show up at his bar. Occasionally, when he actually lived in the bar, he'd get the occasional patron asking if he sold anything that he'd have to politely turn down due to his own inconsistency with crafting. And so, when someone nearly kicked down his door, Endilix found himself nearly scared out of his skin. With no warning, suddenly there was a woman in his doorway shouting at him. A woman his brain would recognize, but not before he dropped the glass he was holding in shock, which shattered into a million pixels. At least in Aincrad Endilix didn't have to worry about cleaning up glass.

Once Endilix came to his sense, he focused on the woman and her words, before letting out a shocked, "Flints?" He stepped to the end of the bar, holding onto it in a bit of disbelief. "I mean, what... what brings you here today?"

Endilix paused as Emerath spoke, and realized that his brother had a point. Stumbling around in the dark would only get them so far, especially if this cave started going in circles. Endilix nodded and took a step back to allow for Emerath to send Mist out. "Okay," he said, before thinking about the quest as a whole, "you know, we haven't even seen evidence that the girl is in this cave. I know she is, because this is a premade quest by the game, but say we find her. How do we find our way back out again?" Endilix sighed and this was about the time that he started to wish that they had brought a torch or something. "We should start carrying a light from now on. I hadn't considered how much of a mess wandering around in a dark cave would be." Endilix started walking through the cave again with another sigh.

Out of Combat Regeneration

Endilix squinted against the darkness as he watched Emerath catch the bat mid air and pummel the creature. It had happened so fast, and Endilix realized that it had been a really long time since he had seen his brother fight. His eyes nearly bugged out at how strong his brother seemed to have become, despite only being a level higher than him. As Emerath turned back to him, Endilix smiled, though he wasn't sure how visible that would actually be in the near pitch blackness of the cave.

Endilix made his way over to his brother, and offered to help him to his feet before saying, "Could've gone a lot worse. You've certainly got more power behind those punches now. It's good to see you doing so well in combat." After helping him up, he gave Emerath a clap on the back and said, "Now let's go, before this bat's friends show up. I know this is a starter quest, but I still don't want to be here any longer than we need to."