Perma Roller Bulls**t! Please bring back the old system.

[Argumail 0]

I can't tell you how annoying dice are but, they are a necessary. Now, this is a rant about the new system, if you like redundant work and overcomplication of simply task , then I will probably be the bad guy in your eyes and I suggest that you turn around now.

 

Now, before I get into the social injustice of this thing, I need to express to everyone that I'm not John Proctor! I'm not trying to overthrow the court, I merely wish to save the my wife. In this case, my wife is my sanity. I need to say, that the perma roller is a good tool for cutting down on lying scumbag and cheaters like the one liner lord did. But It is so redundant... Here go here is a dice system, wait before you use it here another. Really?! What happen to "We trust you" huh. I put down what that dices said no matter what it said. Now, like I said before I'm not John Proctor ok, but if it ain't broke why the flip did you fix it huh? Now, I'm posting from a mobile device, which is by the hard as duck to copy and paste on, have to go to two sites for one post. Really?! Really?!

 

Now Argumail, all you did was complain, How would you fix the problem of cheaters that misuse the trust? Ok, my way is really simple ok, just trust people ok or you should have started with this. Having two different toilet papers to wipe the same arse is crazy... you realize that right. 

 

Ok lets simmer down, if you don't trust people than just delete that easier to use dice altogether, instead of this semi trust stuff. Once again, I'm not John Proctor ok!

 

- Yours Truly

Argumail, the Really piss off!

[Tristan Delaney 0]

I would play the opposite side and say it offers choice. To have a verified roll is almost necessary for especially things like PVP or harder quests, because some people will cheat, even if if it is the occasional nudge here or there. However those little things add up to something bigger as well. I would love to trust all people in the world completely, but realistically (here is my half German realism talking), it's just not feasibly possible. Some people will cheat, that's all there is to it.

 

The choice is good. It means that we have a casual system for your bog standard farming or whatnot, then we have the verified rolls for 'supa-seriouz beeswax' like bosses, crafting and PVP, all of which have the potential to be exploited for personal gain previously.

 

To speak for personal experience, Ive been using my Nexus 5 with Chrome during the day often and found it perfectly fine to use. Type T and Tristan pops up, copy paste a link in, unless i have already used it before so type h instead and quick select a cached thread, then roll. Then switch tab to the RP, type ID number with rolls and done. As far as systems go, it gets the job done and verifies, though i have raged at it in the past few days from my bad luck at rolls before.

 

This kind of feedback is what the staff use though to improve the site, so keep it coming!

[Lessa 1]

First off, I would suggest that you try to present your argument in a different, more professional manner next time. I had to read your post multiple times to even understand what you were saying. You're upset, I understand that. But the beauty of text is that you can still write your thoughts in a more controlled manner. In the future, you might want to be mindful of how you present yourself and your argument. Your title, for example, was completely unnecessary.

Now, as I understand it, you feel that the current system is too difficult. I do every single post on this site from a mobile device. I understand that using this system can be troublesome, and I have expressed this to Cindel and the rest of the staff. This is exactly why we are not requiring that every single roll be on the perma roller. In fact, only craft, boss, and GM-run events need a perma roller. The vast majority of the topics you roll in do not require a perma roller. This should make it easier for you.

On the matter of trust, understand that cheating happens. It happens for a variety of reasons - player confusion, GM confusion, accidental page refreshes, and, of course, players who do it intentionally to improve their items/attacks. We recognize that. There was cheating even before the new site. The reason why we chose this system is to make things a bit more fair. Not everyone cheats, intentionally or otherwise. But some people do. And this system will ensure that there is less cheating where it counts - in big events, and in crafting. If everyone crafts perfect items every time, the game will be ruined. If everyone deals a super critical every turn to the boss, the game will be ruined. This system, though sometimes time-consuming, is incredibly straight-forward. Cindel did an excellent job on it. It gets the job done.

Furthermore, this system is the best we can do right now. If someone could code a roller similar to our old one, I would support it in a heart beat. But no one has. And until someone does, you simply cannot use the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" argument, because it is broke. We have to do the best we can with what we have.

This isn't an issue of trust, or even semi-trust. This is a compromise, that keeps the site running, while also giving players a bit of relief from using the roller for every. single. post. It is a decision that was discussed at length by the staff. Not only that, many players weighed in, if you will recall the multiple public discussion threads that were created.

Rolls are a vital part of this site. It is the reason why I have stayed with it, and it is what sets this forum apart from others I've frequented. As such, we spend a lot of time trying to improve it. If you have any further suggestions, I encourage you to voice them.

[Terrence 0]

I understand both points but, I just have to say this, an excerpt from Argumail's I'm Not John Proctor.

"... Using to different two paers to wipe the same ass is crazy."

 

Futhermore, Realistically regulating this is crazy too. It would more advantageous of you to avoid quest and GM related events to save yourself a headache. I'm not Giles Corey

[Lessa 1]

I understand both points but, I just have to say this, an excerpt from Argumail's I'm Not John Proctor.

"... Using to different two paers to wipe the same ass is crazy."

 

Futhermore, Realistically regulating this is crazy too. It would more advantageous of you to avoid quest and GM related events to save yourself a headache. I'm not Giles Corey

I disagree.

This really isn't that much of a change. We aren't asking you to make dramatic changes to your character or anything. We aren't making huge adjustments to the rules. We are simply asking that you get your roll somewhere else for a post or two. Furthermore, if your issue is with using two methods - the answer to this would be staff requiring a perma roll every single time. That is the alternative. We had hoped that players would prefer this hybrid system.

And players are more than welcome to avoid GM run events. That is their choice. However, there will be many items and skills that will only be available through these events. A player is only inconveniencing his or herself by refusing.

[Tristan Delaney 0]

Actually quests are vital for good SP gain, unless you a LOT of quests to compensate. Its also actually hilariously easy to verify. You simply search for an ID or username and *poof* it shows that roll or that characters rolls. For example for an SP thread, I could simply look at that username, glance to check they did it right and see they weren't telling lies.

 

Also as explained above, it isn't 'the same ass'. Casual RPs and bosses are different beasts, pun not intended.

[Erroneous 0]

The more obvious answer to me is, if we could have migrated over the old dice system, we would have. But we couldn't, or more to the point, I couldn't.

 

We were up on the fence on this for MANY MANY MANY months, we weighed all the pro's and the con's during that time. This was NOT an overnight decision on how to shoot ourselves in the foot. Many players expressed the need and want for more features on the site that was not part of the default. Sure we could have simply taken the time to modify the whole site to meet all those needs, but the quicker solution was to migrate the forum software to a more modern one instead of the 6 year old forum software we had been using, and then figure out a dice alternative then. The whole if it ain't broken don't fix it did apply, the site software itself needed an overhaul. And applying those fixes to it and then finding the need to make them compatible each time it got an update from the developer would become time consuming and bothersome for our and my end.

 

So here we are with the software we needed to provide you with the open possibilities (many of which haven't been used still), to give to all players to enjoy. Then of course the issue with the dice system still remains. We did look at many routes on the dice here. My solution was the "trust" dice that you see on every posting page. Cindel was the one who wanted a more secure non-cheating method hence the off-site dice recorder. Another alternative was have the GM's choose what dice outcomes you players received but that would still revert back to that "trust" issue. And another choice was simply remove dices from posting altogether, and go back to RP'ing basics i.e. quality over quantity in postings.

 

The real reasons I never attempted to rebuild what I built on the old site was because I never developed for or understand how this forum software (IPB) works, I knew the old (PHPBB) because I used to help develop for it. Don't believe me, look up the name Ethalic and the add-on Advanced Dungeons and Rabbits. I knew everything there is to know about PHPBB, I know where all the data is pulled, how it's perceived, how it is stored, and where the functions are handled. But IPB eludes me as a mystery box where stuff goes in, and stuff comes out; basically. So it's not as simple as copy/paste; because you need to know where the posts for the forum module is located and where it is stored in the database. And how to pull that information for each individual posts.

 

Could players have cheated on the old system? Absolutely! Many complaints and players abused or ignored the old dice system. Previously at the old site you could have simply deleted your posts until you got the dice rolls you wanted and no one but staff would have known the wiser. Some people just flat out ignored their rolls, mostly because they didn't realize they appeared AFTER you had made the post and how do you write a post without knowing the outcome? Hence why my "trust" dice appears prior to hitting the post button.

 

If people are underhanded, they will find ways to bend or twist things to meet their goals. This is why this site and most others have a "staff team" to help moderate and control said abuse. However they can not be everywhere, always online, and catch everything. This is why we need more staff around and present and volunteering to do the under-thanked appreciated job that they do for all of us and for you.

[Terrence 0]

Actually quests are vital for good SP gain, unless you a LOT of quests to compensate. Its also actually hilariously easy to verify. You simply search for an ID or username and *poof* it shows that roll or that characters rolls. For example for an SP thread, I could simply look at that username, glance to check they did it right and see they weren't telling lies.

 

Also as explained above, it isn't 'the same ass'. Casual RPs and bosses are different beasts, pun not intended.

Why would 'poop' as you put it when a perfect system is there. Just take one away, this less work for everyone... one way. 

[Lessa 1]

Why would 'poop' as you put it when a perfect system is there. Just take one away, this less work for everyone... one way.

The system that we would remove would be the in-post rolls. We would require all players use the perma roller. Is that something that you would support?

[Cindel 0]

I've posted for feedback and suggestions for the perma roller before.  That offer is still open.  If there's a feature or change you think will help improve it, or make life easier - let me know. I'll see what I can do.

[Tristan Delaney 0]

I am personally fine with how it currently functions along with feedback already given for the dice system. Basically also going to wholeheartedly Lessa and Erro in their posts, along with the fact this is a 'poof' (not poop, that's just ew) which can be verified, not a poof of unverified possible cheating.

[Life 0]

What's wrong with the perma dice roller? It's not even mandatory to use and even then why complain about the exact same thing we already have except cheat proof? I think it's fine the way it is

[Tristan Delaney 0]

What's wrong with the perma dice roller? It's not even mandatory to use and even then why complain about the exact same thing we already have except cheat proof? I think it's fine the way it is

Well it is mandatory in certain cases, such as PVP, crafting, bosses and some quests. Just not in casual RP.

You probably know that, but some people may misinterpret you.

[Terrence 0]

Ok basically we should throw out these die and just use one kind of toilet paper! Thank you Cindel, I appreciated that more than you will know.

 

Well it is mandatory in certain cases, such as PVP, crafting, bosses and some quests. Just not in casual RP.

You probably know that, but some people may misinterpret you.

Translation: Just don't use the regular one, the time of at work or at school pop in and post are over. Unless of course it is a "causal" rp.

[Tristan Delaney 0]

*sighs*

I'm not sure if you are being purposefully inflammatory, but if you continue to be so, you will be warned for it and may suffer consequences. Consider this a hint not to do so.

 

The point is, most standard RPs wont need the permanent dice. Only special RPs like bosses and quests, which offer bonus rewards, require them. Crafting also requires them, or players could be making out little resources basically the best equipment in the entire game like money falling out the sky.

As for why PvP needs them, that should be pretty obvious don't you think? >.>

[Argumail 0]

Terrence just stop. We can't win this, trust me.

 

Ok, well I just want to voice my anger and want to return to the old site. Tristan, you are too young to remember it gloriousness! So lock it down and I will be pm you later, Cindel , If I have an idea worth presenting.

[Tristan Delaney 0]

All it really comes down to is that if someone pops up and finds us a hard coded solution to integrate verified rolls into posts, which cannot be abused like current integrated rolls or the old system, then great!  Keep in mind many people did complain about cheating in the past.

However this way, as Lessa said, you don't need to do verified rolls for every thread, which would also drive me up the wall to sort.

 

It all comes down to the fact a swathe of players asked for a system to verify rolls in certain areas, and we gave them exactly that. We even had a whole thread for how we should do it somewhere! I personally was against verifying all rolls, but this system works in my eyes fine. 

To put it in a different way to see, imagine it like an MMO, which is what SAO is. You would crack down on hackers, right? This is what it is, cracking down exploits of the system for personal gain. Even if the majority can be trusted, there will always be 'that one guy' who exploits it.

I'd say that closes discussion then and can be closed/locked, as asked for by the OP:

[Mari 1]

I personally LOVE the dice system, both versions.

I like the convenience of the on site dice for general RP and I love the work and ideas and customization of the perma roller.

Honestly? If there was no dice system at all, I'd be sad as that is the main thing (other than the ever lovely Erroneous) that drew me to this site.

[Daeron 1]

Terrence just stop. We can't win this, trust me.

 

Ok, well I just want to voice my anger and want to return to the old site. Tristan, you are too young to remember it gloriousness! So lock it down and I will be pm you later, Cindel , If I have an idea worth presenting.

 

You say that he is too young to know how the old site was. Well then let's look at it from a new approach. I myself have been part of the forum for a few months less than a year (around 8 to 9 I would say). Sure, I loved the old system's dice. It's what made me like the whole forum all together. I was fine with the way things worked. Yes, there were those who cheated, yes there were those who acted like there was no dice system.

 

I myself remember back when you had to make 2 posts in order to get 1 result. Back when you couldn't even EDIT your own posts. All I can say is that I have been around longer than you have and I'm still here! The same forum, with almost all of the same people. It doesn't matter if we lose people here and there, but what does matter is those who are.

 

Now, back on topic: There is no problem with the dice system that we have. We have the exact same concept for combat systems and for crafting. The only difference is that if you want to do something that will result in personal gain you need it verified and approved. The PERMA ROLLER is an optional choice when you aren't doing anything big like an event or quest. Think of it like this, the PERMA ROLLER is literally only there for the GM related stuff.

 

Without that nobody would ever get hit on bosses because they block everything, they all deal critical hits on the boss, and they all receive top notch loot dice. Let's say you're in an RPG, how would you feel if you were to play against some hackers (as they usually do this stuff anyways) and they are fighting you and you can't touch them but they keep hitting you. I remember playing some games where they would use a bot to run the game and they win everything without taking a single point of damage while having the most damage dealt in the entire game. That's exactly what we are up against now.

 

So as my own personal input, I am saying, if you don't like to use the perma roller then don't. The only way this will affect you is if you want to do GM Events or Quests and you refuse to use the PERMA ROLLER.

[Tristan Delaney 0]

Well GM's could, and it was part of that with some of the older staff exploiting this ability for the sake of powerplaying that was a part to the fallout of the old staff, among other things. Anyone from then old site who saw it knew.

I basically agree with Daeron on everything there. To allow exploitation on pivotal hinging moments of your character is hacking an MMO. Even if you don't always roll crits or perfect items, some people will do anything to not lose their character to the pit of death.

As he said, you can technically avoid it completely if you hate it, though that'll hinder a number of what you're capable of doing.

I don't know about you, but I approach it like a game. Hack a singleplayer game? Couldn't give a toss what you do, its your game.

Hack a multiplayer game, especially MMO then you are directly affecting the experience of everyone within it, causing an upset to the balance of the game and potentially degrading another users experience. This is of even more relevancy in crafting to avoid all people walking around with perfect gear from like three Mats and in PvP.